3SOF

Public 3SOF Boards => Stock Picking => Topic started by: stout7735 on August 31, 2005, 02:33:14 PM

Title: VSGN
Post by: stout7735 on August 31, 2005, 02:33:14 PM
Early termination of one trial yesterday  led to crash over 50%...Other CHF phase 111 trial continues to look positive...Despite VSGN weak finances to survive into 2006,A G Edwards likes it at $5...Downturn may be overdone...When begins to  trend up,may be good short term investment...Sell at $2.79??? ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: stout7735 on September 02, 2005, 02:19:07 PM
Today is the day to buy...Trending up...Good short term profit potential...
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: stout7735 on September 08, 2005, 03:07:22 AM
It is days like this i feel like an idiot,down 14%...Crashed through all support and stops...May go low enough to become a candidate for 3stocksonfire someday...At least most of  the shorts took their profits and left...I will watch it now to look for a SUSTAINED rally...The cliinicians feel  positive toward the product being tested now...
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: setravis on October 17, 2005, 07:47:20 PM
This one looks good for a play now.
May want to close this gap. Great volume and moving nice.

Technicals
Close Above the 13-day EMA
Percentage Gainer

Last Price Quote is:
28.92%above 13-day EMA
-0.41%below 50-day EMA
RS Rating: 2 

Fundamentals
Key Data:
Market Cap (M): $190.55 
Last Analyst Rating: Buy
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: stocks2watch2 on February 01, 2006, 10:23:49 AM

Vasogen`s Phase III SIMPADICO Results to be Presented at Late-Breaking Session of the 55th Annual Scientific Session of the American College of Cardiology

February 01, 2006 06:01:01 (ET)


TORONTO, Feb 01, 2006 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- Vasogen Inc. (VSGN, Trade), a leader in the research and commercial development of technologies targeting the chronic inflammation underlying cardiovascular and neurological disease, today announced that the pivotal phase III SIMPADICO trial in peripheral arterial disease (PAD) has been accepted for presentation at a Late- Breaking Clinical Trial session of the 55th Annual Scientific Session of the American College of Cardiology (ACC). The ACC meeting, which is being held in Atlanta from March 11 to 14, 2006, attracts approximately 20,000 cardiovascular professionals from the United States, Canada, and the rest of the world.

The initial results of the SIMPADICO trial of the Company's Celacade(TM) technology in PAD will be presented by Dr. Jeffrey Olin, on Sunday, March 12, at 2:45 p.m. E.T., at the Georgia World Congress Center. The Company will issue a press release providing details on the trial results at the time of Dr. Olin's presentation. Dr. Olin is Professor of Medicine at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Director of Vascular Medicine at The Zena and Michael A. Wiener Cardiovascular Institute in New York, and Principal Investigator and Chairman of the Steering Committee for the SIMPADICO trial.

"The opportunity to present the SIMPADICO trial results at a Late-Breaking Clinical Trial session of the American College of Cardiology recognizes both the quality of this pivotal study and the growing need for new approaches to treat patients with peripheral arterial disease," stated Dr. Jay H. Kleiman, Chief Medical Officer and Head of Cardiovascular Development of Vasogen Inc. "We now look forward to the analysis and interpretation of the SIMPADICO data and to the presentation of the initial findings from this study at the ACC meeting."

The ACC selects presentations for Late-Breaking Clinical Trial sessions based on the potential of the study to affect clinical practice, the impact and novelty of the research, the rigor of the design/methods, the major clinical endpoints, and the quality of the statistical plan.

The SIMPADICO trial was designed to further investigate the use of Vasogen's Celacade technology to improve intermittent claudication, a debilitating symptom associated with PAD. SIMPADICO is a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial that enrolled 550 patients at 50 sites in the United States and Canada. The primary endpoint of SIMPADICO is the change in maximum walking distance from baseline to 26 weeks assessed on a constant speed treadmill with increasing grade. The study was also designed to investigate the impact of Celacade on additional endpoints, including PAD and cardiovascular-related events, and quality of life.

Peripheral arterial disease is a serious condition due to impaired blood flow to the lower extremities resulting from atherosclerosis. The disease often leads to reduced mobility and a marked impairment in the ability to undertake basic activities of daily independent living. It is estimated that in the United States alone, PAD affects approximately nine million people, with related healthcare costs exceeding $10 billion annually. The condition is associated with a high level of morbidity, and an estimated 30% of patients diagnosed with PAD will die within five years. Patients also have a six-fold increase in risk of death from cardiovascular disease, and often experience the symptom of intermittent claudication (leg pain on walking). Currently, there are limited effective pharmacological therapies available for the treatment of intermittent claudication, and there is a need for a more effective treatment option.

Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: setravis on February 01, 2006, 10:04:55 PM
Nice move and volume today !
Today a Long White Candlestick was formed. This shows that the prices advanced significantly from open to close during the day under strong buying pressure.... ;D

The last two candlesticks formed a Bullish Kicking Pattern . This is a bullish reversal pattern that marks a potential change in trend. Though it is highly reliable confirmation is still recommended.... ;D

The last three candlesticks formed a Bullish Morning Star Pattern . This is a bullish reversal pattern that marks a potential change in trend. Though it is highly reliable confirmation is still recommended.... ;D


Support @ $2.74...2.27...1.92
Resistance @ $2.98...5.18...5.28


Technicals
MACD is Bullish
Stochastic is Bearish....but turning up
Percentage Gainer

Last Price Quote is:
22.84%above 13-day EMA
24.81%above 50-day EMA
RS Rating: 19 

Fundamentals
Key Data:
Market Cap (M): $195.56 
P/E Ratio: NA 
PEG Ratio: N/A 
Next Earnings: N/A
Last Analyst Rating: Buy
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: stocks2watch2 on February 02, 2006, 09:54:18 AM
Sold 1/3 @ 3.06.If it holds 3 I'll hold the rest.
Bid-3.03
Ask-3.05
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: setravis on February 02, 2006, 01:56:40 PM
I never sell until the chart does the talking..... :D
Great volume...
Volume: 2,693,107
Avg Volume (3m): 481,722


Technicals
Percentage Gainer

Last Price Quote is:
36.19%above 13-day EMA
41.51%above 50-day EMA
RS Rating: 74 

Fundamentals
Key Data:
Market Cap (M): $195.56 
P/E Ratio: NA 
PEG Ratio: N/A 
Next Earnings: N/A
Last Analyst Rating: Buy
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: stocks2watch2 on February 02, 2006, 02:13:36 PM
Quote from: setravis on February 02, 2006, 01:56:40 PM
I never sell until the chart does the talking..... :D

And I like to sell some into the run, to buy a little insurance ;D. Now averaged down to  2.25  ;D Whatever works for you as long as your making some money. I'm having a hell of a year so far.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: setravis on February 02, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
Quote from: stocks2watch2 on February 02, 2006, 02:13:36 PM
Quote from: setravis on February 02, 2006, 01:56:40 PM
I never sell until the chart does the talking..... :D

And I like to sell some into the run, to buy a little insurance ;D. Now averaged down to  2.25  ;D Whatever works for you as long as your making some money. I'm having a hell of a year so far.

I hear you  stocks2watch2 ! What ever is working for you, "Do it to it" !!  ;D
Glad to hear you bringing in the profits.....Keep it rolling my friend... ;)
Applaud to you..... ;)
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: stocks2watch2 on February 02, 2006, 03:14:27 PM
We all know your the chart guru ;D. I'm gonna take another 1/3 of this one today. Good Luck to you. Keep up the good work. If you get the chance take a look at the charts on IMGN,SPAB.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: stocks2watch2 on February 03, 2006, 09:37:57 AM
Out@ 3.43. Good Luck if your still holding.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: Terliso on August 31, 2006, 02:26:33 PM
Bottom fishing!! :D ;D
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: akclide on August 31, 2006, 02:51:58 PM
just put a order in for [email protected], let's see what happens
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: Terliso on August 31, 2006, 06:14:08 PM
The close is not so bad huh, acklide?

I don't expect VSGN to close that gap soon, but i'm hoping the bulls to penetrate the 0.74 tomorrow morning ;)

Good luck!
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: akclide on August 31, 2006, 06:22:03 PM
I expect about the same. Good luck to you as well if you are in it.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: tokyopua on September 01, 2006, 12:46:55 AM
So you guys are just looking for a quick trade once it gets to .74?
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: Terliso on September 01, 2006, 12:59:02 AM
Ohh yeah just a quick trade ... I'm already in @ 0.67 & that's also the close fo the day ;)

Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: Terliso on September 01, 2006, 01:05:03 AM
if you get in @ 0.67 & out @ 0.70 with 15000 shares that's still $450 profits, right? ;) :D
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: tokyopua on September 01, 2006, 09:45:55 AM
I didnt see any bad news to cause the drop, but someone was selling cheap in the pre market.  I just noticed at the last minute and got 2000 shares filled at .55 at about 9:29 AM lol, though I wanted more.  Anyway, here is to hoping it gets back to where it should be, so we can all profit!

Update: argh, had to get out at .56 just to keep even, sorry this isnt working out so far  :(
Title: Is it a real good news "New Data from Vasogen's ACCLAIM Trial ..."?
Post by: gri64 on September 03, 2006, 06:35:40 PM
Expected news is on the table:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060903/to329.html?.v=4
New Data from Vasogen's ACCLAIM Trial in Heart Failure Presented at World Congress of Cardiology 2006
Sunday September 3, 11:33 am ET
- 31% Risk Reduction in Combined Group of Class III/IV Patients with No Prior Heart Attack and All Class II Patients -
- New Data Define Prime Target Population for Commercial Development -


I'm NOT an expert in biotechnology - can somebody understand: is this news a real GOOD news?  ???  ???  ???

Check old news:
26 June 2006 Vasogen Inc., down $1.37 at $0.48, because of the Phase III initial results:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060626/to179.html?.v=30
Vasogen Announces Initial Results from Phase III ACCLAIM Trial in Chronic Heart Failure
Monday June 26, 7:32 am ET
Study did not meet primary endpoint; Endpoint Met in NYHA Class II Patient Subgroup

------------------------------
Sold half on Fri 1 Sep @0.63 with a 7% loss  :(
And still holding last half of my position... we will see some action on Monday.

Good trades for all and thanks in advance for any thoughts about this news.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: gri64 on September 04, 2006, 03:19:20 PM
Last piece of news:

Vasogen New ACCLAIM Results Presented at the World Congress of Cardiology 2006 Conference Call
http://biz.yahoo.com/cc/2/72442.html

When June's gap will be filled ?
What kind of action we will see on Tuesday?  ???

Any thoughts will be very much appreciated :)
(Please, see my previous post.)

Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: akclide on September 05, 2006, 09:40:18 AM
It is moving up or may be I should say it is running up.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: Terliso on September 05, 2006, 10:49:49 AM
Nice come back! :D ;D ;)
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: gri64 on September 13, 2006, 01:40:19 PM
News is out: interesting point of view to the known results.

29% :o

http://www.3stocksonfire.org/trading/index.php?action=post;topic=2530.15;num_replies=23
"Vasogen's Celacade(TM) Shown to Significantly Reduce Time in Hospital in Prime Heart Failure Target Population"

Title: VSGN - Moving!
Post by: Like A. Rock on September 13, 2006, 01:41:35 PM
Just got this from my news feed..

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Press Release Source: Vasogen Inc.


Vasogen's Celacade(TM) Shown to Significantly Reduce Time in Hospital in Prime Heart Failure Target Population
Wednesday September 13, 1:12 pm ET 
- New Data from the ACCLAIM Trial Presented at the Heart Failure Society of America Meeting
- Preparations Underway for FDA Meeting to Discuss Plans for Regulatory Submission in U.S. -


MISSISSAUGA, ON, Sept. 13 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ - Vasogen Inc. (NASDAQ:VSGN - News; TSX:VAS - News), a leader in the research and commercial development of technologies targeting the chronic inflammation underlying cardiovascular and neurological disease, today announced that new data from the 2,400-patient ACCLAIM trial of Celacade in chronic heart failure, showed that the average days spent in hospital for cardiovascular cause was reduced by 32% in a prime heart failure target population, consisting of New York Heart Association (NYHA) Class II-IV non-ischemic cardiomyopathy patients, characterized as having no prior history of heart attack, and Class II patients with ischemic heart failure (n=1,305 patients, p=0.013). The results were presented today by Guillermo Torre-Amione MD, PhD, at the 10th Annual Scientific Meeting of the Heart Failure Society of America in Seattle, Washington. Chronic heart failure is estimated to cost the healthcare system $25 billion annually in the U.S., and recurring hospitalizations are the major cost driver.
ADVERTISEMENT


"The ability of Celacade to significantly reduce time in hospital, in conjunction with reducing the risk of death or cardiovascular hospitalization for this important group of heart failure patients, underscores the robustness and consistency of the ACCLAIM data," stated Dr. Torre-Amione, Medical Director, Heart Transplant Program, Methodist DeBakey Heart Center at The Methodist Hospital, and Principal Investigator for the U.S. arm of the ACCLAIM trial. "The need for repeated hospitalizations remains a persistent problem for heart failure patients, resulting in reduced quality of life and a major drain on healthcare resources. A therapy that not only reduces the risk of death or first cardiovascular hospitalization, but also reduces the total days spent in hospital by a similar magnitude, would be a welcome addition to the standard of care."

As presented by Dr. Torre-Amione today, a combined analysis of NYHA Class II-IV non-ischemic cardiomyopathy patients, characterized as having no prior history of heart attack, as well as Class II patients with ischemic etiology, demonstrated a 31% reduction in the risk of death or first cardiovascular hospitalization in the Celacade group compared to placebo (n=1,305 patients, 391 events, p=0.0003). New data presented today showed that, in these patients, Celacade also reduced total days in hospital for cardiovascular cause by 32% (n= 1,305 patients, p=0.013).

A combined analysis based on pre-specified subgroups, which excluded only those patients in NYHA Class III/IV with a left-ventricular ejection fraction equal to or below the median (LVEF<=23%) and a prior history of heart attack, showed that Celacade reduced the risk of death or first cardiovascular hospitalization by 21% (n=1,746 patients, 560 events, p=0.005). This finding, comprising 72% of the patients in the ACCLAIM study, demonstrates the consistency of Celacade's therapeutic effect in patients who have not progressed to late-stage disease. Based on the mortality and morbidity in this population, these patients are expected to form the target market for commercialization of Celacade in the European Union.

"The data from the ACCLAIM trial highlight the considerable commercial potential of Celacade in the treatment of a majority of chronic heart failure patients," stated David Elsley, President and CEO of Vasogen. "In light of the positive findings from ACCLAIM, preparations are now underway for a meeting with the FDA to discuss plans for regulatory submission of Celacade for approval in the United States. We are also making important progress in discussions with prospective marketing partners to support commercialization of Celacade in the European Union for the largest and fastest growing segment of the heart failure market."

Consistent with the impact of Celacade on the risk of mortality and morbidity in a majority of patients in the ACCLAIM trial was the finding of a significant improvement in quality of life (as measured by the Minnesota Living with Heart Failure Questionnaire) for the intent-to-treat study population (p=0.04). Celacade was also shown to be safe and well tolerated, and there were no significant between-group differences for any serious adverse events.

"Hospitalization remains the major cost associated with the ongoing care of chronic heart failure patients, and the new data presented today provide further evidence to support reimbursement and the adoption of Celacade into the standard of care in heart failure," said Dr. James Young, Chairman, The Cleveland Clinic Foundation, Medical Director, Kaufman Center for Heart Failure, and Chairman of the Steering Committee for the ACCLAIM trial. "Importantly, our overall findings clearly indicate that Celacade provided a significant risk reduction for a majority of the patient population in the ACCLAIM trial, excluding only those with advanced left-ventricular dysfunction and a history of cardiac damage due to heart attack - disease that is likely irreversible. We are looking forward to a meeting with the FDA to discuss plans for a formal application for regulatory approval of Celacade."

About the ACCLAIM Trial

The double blind, placebo-controlled ACCLAIM trial studied 2,408 subjects with chronic heart failure at 175 clinical centers in seven countries. ACCLAIM was designed to assess the ability of Celacade to reduce the risk of death or first cardiovascular hospitalization. Patients included in the study had New York Heart Association (NYHA) Class II, III, or IV heart failure with a left-ventricular ejection fraction (LVEF) of 30% or less and had been hospitalized or received intravenous drug therapy for heart failure within the previous 12 months, or had NYHA Class III/IV heart failure with a LVEF of less than 25%.

Patients in the ACCLAIM trial were receiving optimal standard-of-care therapy for heart failure, which at baseline included diuretics (94%), ACE-inhibitors (94%), beta blockers (87%), automatic implantable cardioverter defibrillators (26%), and use of cardiac resynchronization therapy (10.5%). The placebo (n=1,204 patients) and Celacade (n=1,204 patients) groups were well balanced for all important baseline characteristics, including demographics, LVEF, NYHA classification, concomitant medical conditions, medications, and device therapies.

The difference in time to death or first cardiovascular hospitalization (the primary endpoint) for the intent-to-treat study population was not statistically significant; however, the risk reduction directionally favoured the Celacade group.

About Chronic Heart Failure

Chronic inflammation is now well recognized as an underlying mechanism contributing to the development and progression of heart failure. Chronic heart failure is a debilitating condition in which the heart's ability to pump blood throughout the body is impaired. Patients with heart failure experience a continuing decline in their health, resulting in an increased frequency of hospitalization and in premature death.

About the Chronic Heart Failure Market

In North America and Europe, chronic heart failure affects approximately twelve million people, thirty three percent of whom have non-ischemic etiology. At any one time, approximately 4.4 million of these patients are in the NYHA Class II stage of disease and 2.4 million patients are NYHA Class III.

In the U.S. alone, the cost of medical care, primarily resulting from hospitalization, is estimated to exceed $25 billion annually and the condition is associated with more than 600,000 deaths each year. Currently, there are no approved therapies that target the chronic inflammation underlying chronic heart failure.


Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: gri64 on September 19, 2006, 11:27:27 AM
Old news from September 12 about tomorrow Conference presentation became to work - today VSGN raised up to 9.8%

Vasogen to Present at the A.G. Edwards' Emerging Growth Conference

MISSISSAUGA, ON, Sept. 12 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ - Vasogen Inc. (NASDAQ:VSGN - News; TSX:VAS - News), a leader in the research and commercial development of technologies targeting the chronic inflammation underlying cardiovascular and neurological disease, today announced that its President and Chief Executive Officer, David Elsley, will present a Company overview at the A.G. Edwards' Emerging Growth Conference 2006 on Wednesday, September 20, at 10:30 a.m. ET at the New York Palace Hotel.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: Terliso on September 29, 2006, 12:38:38 PM
Bought back VSGN ;)

past a buck in play if breakout on ascending triangle ;)
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: la-onda on September 30, 2006, 02:34:57 AM
in @ 0.71
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: la-onda on October 02, 2006, 06:06:31 PM
down today, breakout from ascending triangle failed  ???
cheers
Oliver
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: la-onda on October 09, 2006, 10:31:37 AM
Terliso,
will you hold through the earnings?
cheers
O.

Vasogen to Conduct Quarterly Conference Call
PR Newswire - October 05, 2006 11:06 AM ET

Vasogen Inc. (NASDAQ:VSGN; TSX:VAS), a leader in the research and commercial development of technologies targeting the chronic inflammation underlying cardiovascular and neurological disease, will release its quarterly results after the close of the North American financial markets on Thursday, October 12, 2006. A conference call and audio web cast will also be conducted on Thursday, October 12, 2006, at 4:30 p.m. Eastern Time, during which management will provide a Company update and discuss third quarter results.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: D&Data on November 08, 2006, 07:09:25 AM
Hello,

what are your impressions on this descending triangle ??

TIA

(http://\\assurancetourix\xavier.bastin$\mes%20images\vvsgn.jpg)


Id
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: D&Data on November 12, 2006, 09:54:30 AM
Watch...VSGN hit 0.44 last week ! :-X

Thursday,

Vasogen Raises US$20.3 Million Through Sale of Common Shares and Warrants
Thursday November 9, 9:27 am ET


MISSISSAUGA, ON, Nov. 9 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ - Vasogen Inc. (NASDAQ:VSGN - News; TSX:VAS - News) today announced that it has entered into a definitive purchase agreement to raise US$20.3 million in gross proceeds through the sale of its common shares and warrants to institutional investors. Pursuant to the terms of the purchase agreement, the Company has agreed to sell a total of 43.2 million units at US$0.47 per unit, each unit consisting of one common share, 0.4 of a five-year warrant to purchase a common share at US$0.63 per share and 0.1 of a six-month warrant to purchase a common share at US$0.53 per share. One full warrant is required to purchase one share. If all of the 21.6 million warrants are exercised, the Company will receive an additional US$13.2 million in gross proceeds. The offering is expected to close on or about November 10, 2006, subject to customary closing conditions.

Happy to have sold @.62 before this flop !!
I'm gonna wait VSGN to hit 0.37 $ ...There I'll buy  ;D .

(http://C:%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5CRaymond%5CMes%20documents%5CMes%20images%5CVSGN.JPG)

IdFix.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: D&Data on December 27, 2006, 09:18:50 AM
hi... :)

(http://\\assurancetourix\xavier.bastin$\mes%20images\vsgn.jpg)
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: setravis on December 27, 2006, 10:07:12 AM
"VSGN" Threads have been Merged.
Please use the search before starting new threads on a Stock Pick.
Chances are a thread already exist.
So why not post whatever you have to comment about on that pick to that thread.
"Simplicity" My fellow traders.     ;)             
All history on a stock pick in 1 thread is awesome.   ;)               
Just trying to get threads together,so we don't have a numerous amount floating around on the same stock.
Thank You....and good luck with all your trades....make some $$$      ;D   
   

Happy New Year ! May it be Prosperous for all @ 3SOF......   ;)
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: buffaholic on January 30, 2007, 03:34:57 PM
This thing has been running a bit into earnings (which are tomorrow). Positive news and this thing could really fly.
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: D&Data on January 31, 2007, 03:21:46 PM
yes...VSGN: Q4 Earnings Call @ 16:30 ET Today [delayed]---> let see  ::)
yesterday's gap has been filed .-good-

(http://C:%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5CRaymond%5CMes%20documents%5CMes%20images%5CVSGN.JPG)
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: lancefur on March 01, 2007, 06:52:49 AM
Anyone have thoughts on this going forward since this didn't have a down day on Tuesday?
Title: Re: VSGN downturn to reverse????
Post by: stock-kitty on December 19, 2007, 07:56:37 AM
I am bringing this topic back up after the recent NR's.  Results of Vasogen's Phase III ACCLAIM trial is acccepted for publication in The Lancet (a prestigious medical paper).
I have a feeling that this stock will surprise us in 2008.  ;)